Rule 14 and who it applies to.

Why is it an Immortal can repeatedly harass and troll a player with zero consequence? Has anyone else noticed this trend?

I have publicly and privately asked Veska (and others, but mostly Veska) to stop with all of the drug use talk on OOC and I am repeatedly ignored. I have emailed Walldo twice about this problem.

Each and every time I bring the problem up on immchat I am either ignored, or it is suggested I gag him on my client. As far as I understand, it isn’t expected for a player to gag another if they are facing repeated bouts of harassment- it’s expected for rule 14 to be enforced fairly across the board.

Just recently Veska and another player were discussing Marijuana and other drugs on OOC. I politely asked them to stop twice, I asked the imms to put a stop to it on immchat, and I was ignored on both mediums. In fact, Veska and “Kanin” ramped up their discussion and started talking about harder drugs and claiming I was “harassing them” because I found their topics offensive. I then equated their drug talk and their justification that it is legal in Washington to beastiality (which is legal in many states) and my OOC was disabled. My OOC will remain disabled for a minimum of 48 hours. Kanin was silenced for 5 hours, Veska was asked to stop for the time being.

This is seriously ridiculous. We’re supposed to be promoting an atmosphere that is PG-13. Illegal drug use is not a PG-13 topic, neither is Beastiality. Yet neither activity is more “legal” than the other. Why is it when I try to make a point I am punished to the extreme while those who were intentionally provoking a player are slapped on the wrist? Does this really promote a positive atmosphere?

I know others are offended by the drug talk. I think everyone needs to take a stand on this topic and email Walldo. It’s ridiculous that a member of LOTJ’s staff can so brazenly attack and harass individual players as the rest of the staff turns a blind eye.

Just to make it clear, this issue with Veska has gone on for _months_.

I’m actually with Andvari on this. We need universal rule enforcement. We cant pick and chose what taboo topics are accepted and are not. Our guideline is pg13 so we need to stick with that.

Drug use is considered PG-13, and what is illegal in some places it not illegal in others. Gay marriage is just as applicable an example here. There are many topics which opinions will be strong and differing. Bestiality is not at all PG-13. It is well beyond it.

If a topic makes someone uncomfortable, then an RPC should intervene to change the topic to something more appropriate, or silence the appropriate parties if they go over a line.

The issue isn’t 100% based around pg13 as a whole. The main problem here is that two players were harassing and intentionally escalating a conversation that another player expressed he was bothered by. If I’m going to turn a page with my ooc behavior, I certainly expect staff members to do the same.

Do we really want to promote a culture where bullying is more tolerated than a single burst of vulgarity?

Also, keep in mind that 15-20 years ago homosexuality was just as looked down upon as beastiality is today. I wouldn’t put it past people to eventually decide that someone may be in love with his poodle. It’s ridiculous, but that is why I used it as an example.

This is a circular argument that happens nearly every time two particular players (one mort one staff) are on line at the same time because their stances are always the same. That said, I definitely feel that if a staff member is requested to not talk about a topic, that they should just change the subject. There are lots of examples of what is illegal in one place is legal in another, and unless we are all wanting to turn this into a pen and paper game and crowd us all in to one room, you will never be able to apply laws and rules equitably.

I personally am fed up with this because it seems to be a constant back and forth. BUT KAM, TURN OFF OOC! No, I shouldn’t have to. BUT KAM, FREEDOM OF SPEECH! Bzzzzt, wrong. There is no 1st amendment here. Lotj is a private organization that can dictate what is and is not acceptable behavior.

The end result is that I should not have to be personally inconvenienced every time a particular person wants to bring up a particular topic.

The real point is that people who keep talking about the same crap on OOC over and over again are boring and annoying. Everyone knows how Veska feels about pot and no one needs to hear it again. But he’s not the only one who is guilty of repeatedly beating a dead horse into the ground. Back in the days when Fishy had her minesweeper server up, I was about ready to gouge my eyes out every time X talked about how he was going to grief Y, which was at least four million times a day. Just an example, there are many.

Be more interesting with your OOC conversations and everyone will be happier.

Seriously? Is he seriously whining about people talking about drugs over a computer? Not actually seeing it or being forced to do any himself but simply discussing it. You have got to be kidding me. Dude, grow up. If you don’t like what’s being said then isn’t there a command you can enter in to make it stop? Oh yea ‘Chan -OOC’. I mean it’s not even the worst thing we’ve all heard/seen on the ooc channel. I honestly think rants like this are what’s going to lead to the OOC channel just being disabled permenately.

If there is one thing @Andvari and I can agree upon, it is this. This exact issue with Rule 14 being applicable only to certain people was a severe point of contention for me when I actually cared. I am in 100% agreement that Rule 14 should apply to everyone. RPC generally (depending on who is on the council) got harassed big time for breaking Rule 14 because they are “the public face of the MUD.” I argued time and again that the same applied to the Immortal staff because I always felt they were the ones who should be more representative of what the MUD is all about.

The staff should be held to an even higher standard than the players. If you expect the players to do it, you should expect the staff to do it twice over. The idea that a staff member can not stop talking about a topic when requested multiple times, regardless of what the topic is, is completely absurd to me. However, IMMs harassing players, telling outright lies to players, along with just being general jackasses for no real reason to players (many current staff and owners included) is nothing new to LOTJ. With all of that said, Andvari, stop bringing up beastiality, its a dumb comparison and it makes your argument sound extremely petty and makes most people tune out your concerns just based off of that alone. While I personally think your issues with marijuana talk is silly, that’s just my opinion and you of course have yours. I do however agree that you shouldn’t be subject to something that you find offensive (to a certain degree of logic) and I have personally seen you request multiple times now for them to please stop talking about (and for those that know me, I never have OOC on, so if I’ve seen this twice on OOC then you know it has to go on a lot).

Before we talk about rules not applying to staff or double standards or anything, I think it would help if we all take a look at what rule 14 actually says –

(14) Do not disrespect, insult, complain about, troll or harass other players, the RPC, or Immortals. Everyone is here for the enjoyment of the game. If youdisrupt that enjoyment with insults your channel privileges will be revoked.
See also: help rule14

And help rule14 –

Rule 14 is the golden rule of OOC behavior on LotJ. That being: Be decent to others, or be silenced.

– Examples of Rule 14 breaches
* Insulting or personally attacking another player
* Sexist, racist, or other offensive remarks, jokes, or comments
* Belittling other players
* Explicit language depicting graphic violence or sexual content

In light of this, what’s actually being said or done that breaks the rule? “Trolling and harassing players” is pretty different than “talking about pot.”

Walldo, the fact that you’re trying to steer this into the “this isn’t really a harassment” type of topic speaks volumes for the PR issues on LOTJ in my opinion. You have a player that has an issue with a topic a staff member talks about nonstop and has asked multiple times for them to please stop, only to have it escalated in depth of the topic only in spite of the player’s request. Why not just ask the staff to hold themselves to a higher standard instead of trying to play rule lawyer? Pretty much everyone except Andvari has stated that they think marijuana is an odd subject to get upset over, but at this point it has become an issue because the staff member decides to ramp up their talks when they know he’s on and when they know he’s upset about it. That in itself is the definition of harassment whether its written out in rule language or not. There is nothing wrong with asking a staff member to try to lead by example, amazingly I bet the players would love it…versus just continuing to ignore issues like this when they crop up..which seems to be the norm.

By the way bestiality was banned in Washington state in 2006. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia_and_the_law

It’s sad to me that A) you think LOTJ has PR issues and haven’t brought them up that I can recall B) you feel the need to phrase things like that. Most of us have been here for years, we are all a big family at this point so that angle makes me sad.

I’m not ‘steering’ anything. There are two lines of conversation in this thread: talking about drugs on OOC and people harassing others on OOC and I wanted to point out that difference.

I haven’t seen any logs or anything of anyone, imm or otherwise, harassing players.

I am looking at my inbox right now. I have gotten three emails this year on the matter, two from Andvari, and they are all strictly about talking about drugs on OOC, nothing about harassing players.

I am posting in this thread in good faith and to listen to what you have to say so please don’t jump at me like that. I’m not arguing with anyone, or telling anyone they are wrong

The issue is that it IS harassment once you ask someone to stop and they tell you to go fuck yourself. Whether by continuing to talk about it or by directly saying no. It’s harassment either way, especially when you escalate the conversation in response to the request.