Level System Alternative

The current level system has made more than a few people upset. I’m not really mad about the level system, but I am pretty annoyed that you can’t get 150 in your main class. Actually, scratch that, mad that you can actually get less than 150 in your main class on a race that has no negative modifiers to a class specific attribute. There’s a simple and overhaul version of this.

Simple Version

If a race has 18 in the major attribute(s) to their main class, they get 150 in that main class. Guaranteed. If a race does not have 18 they do not get 150 in their main class. Let’s look at Jawas versus Humans as Combat Mains under my system.

The Human would get 150 combat because the human has the base galactic standard for their main class attribute. All others can be rolled as normal per the ranges in showrace.

The Jawa on the other hand, it has -9 to str. Strength is the major factor in the combat class. So they automatically stat at 9 base instead of 18. Starting at 150, they recieve -90 levels to their combat. That is 10 levels * (18 base – 9 difference) is 10 * 9 is 90 levels. So they’d only get 60 levels in combat. As it stands, that would ensure they end up in the tier 2 that it has listed for them. Again, the rest roll at the ranges in Showrace.

This does two things. 1) It means that you can get 150 in your main class unless you pick a stupid race for a class that has a negative modifier to its main class main attribute and 2) It takes the guess work out. you don’t have to worry about getting 150 in your main because as long as you end up at 18+ base attribute you get 150.

Advanced Version
This would be a total overhaul of the current system.

Basically, you pick a main class. Then you pick a secondary and tertiary class. This allows several things. First, it lets you make characters for what you want them to be in a major way. Secondly, it lets you play multi-classed characters and lets staff make sure you aren’t getting 150 in everything. Let me show you how the levels would work.

We’ll go back to human combatant. All citizens start at 60 base levels in each class. The main class is automatically guaranteed 150 as per the simple version above. Then you take away 10 levels for every point their main class main attribute is from 18. So our human would end up at 150. His second class is piloting, because he wants to be a semi good pilot too. He gets +40 levels to that class, so he ends up at 100 piloting. If he has a bonus to his main attribute for piloting he would get +5 levels per bonus. His tertiary class is engineering. He only gets +20 for that. So he’ll end up at 80. The rest of the classes would be the base 60 – 10 so each one would be at 50. Bounty hunter of course would end up at 0 – unless you picked this as your main in which case you’d get 150 and imms may want to give you 150 combat too. So our human would look like:

Combat: 150
Bounty Hunting: 0
Diplomacy: 50
Leadership: 50
Espionage: 50
Engineering: 80
Piloting: 100
Science: 50
Slicer: 50
Medical: 50

The bonuses or detriments to classes outside your main, second and tertiary can easily be changed by staff. Now lets look at a race like Jawa Combat.

The Jawa combatant picks of course combat for his main class, Piloting for his second class and Slicer for his third. The Combat ends up at 150 – (9*10)[str difference] – 0 (no con detriment). So it ends up at 60. His second class piloting ends up at 100, but he also has +3 dex. So he ends up at 100 + (3*5) or 100+15 or 115. His third class is slicer. It uses Lck and Wis. He gets +3 on both. So while his Slicer would be 80, he ends up at 80 + 15 + 15 or 80 + 30 so 110 levels of Slicer. So this is an example of how picking a class that’s bad for what it wants to do is stupid, but also how the bonuses can add up in the long run. So basically, go through each class. Main starts at 150, Second at 100, Third at 80. The rest are 50. Then add or subtract based on bonuses. Main is -(10*main attributes detriment) levels. All others are +/- Additive/Detriment 5 levels. So in the case our jawa here he would end up at:
Combat: 60 (150 – 90 – 0)
Piloting: 115 (100 + 15)
Engineering: 70 (50 + 20)
BH: 0
Smuggling: 65 (50 + 15)
Leadership: 55 (50 + 15 – 10)
Diplomacy: 55 (50 + 15 – 10)
Espionage: 80 (50 + 15 + 15)
Slicer: 110 (80 + 15 + 15)
Medic: 85 (50 + 15 + 20)
Science: 70 (50 + 20)

So basically, to try to give it a pseudo code feel.

Pastebin because I couldn’t get preformatted text or code tags to work.

http://pastebin.com/YJM7xrED

I understand where you’re coming from, but at the very least, understand that everyone else is in the same situation so there is balance. I definitely hate seeing 140-149 slicing as a slicer main, but I think picking second/third classes would open too many cans of worms of min/maxing as people just go combat/smugg/espi or something, but I could get behind a more significant boost to actual primary class for sure.

there have always been several instances where a race/class combo doesn’t get 150 in it’s main class predominantly because it gets so many support levels – Lorrdian being an easy off-the-cuff example; always had circa 145 combat and not the final 5 levels because they got a vast boost to espionage (essentially trading blackjack for flurry).

These days, Lorrdians get 150 combat aswell.

I’ve explained on OOC very, very many times that the levels everyone gets are NOT new, randomly chosen figures we’ve pulled out of thin air because we hate people. These are the level spreads, plus or minus a few small adjustments, from when we had the old +/-levelling system across the board (where we could set -99 levels on a race to ensure they never got above 1/1, etc). That system was in use what, 10 years? These are the levels that were MEANT to be in play last timeline that got warped out of context.

It’s fully understandable that people quite liked having an extra 100 or so levels across the board, and found new race/class combinations that might conceivably make sense. That is why we’ve repeatedly said “please offer up any suggestions you have” – since we can now tailor a race/class combo’s levels across the board almost spot on to numerical suggestions. As always, “I’m a Bothan, i should probably max out my espionage” is going to be greeted with a far more interested reception than “argh imm moronz this sucks you suck i’m not getting what i want”

Picking a main class, second, tertiary class is a system they use on some modified SWR’s with like 2-3 maximum players. Neven’s hit the nail on the head that it seems to be built purely for min-maxing every character. It’s needlessly complicated, and i’ve never seen it implemented well enough to cater to people needs.

Cheers,
Ralen.

Then this is my problem with the system so far Ralen.

I have a duros espi main. I don’t get 150 espionage even though it’s rated 5 and I have a +4 based on +1 lck and +3 dex here. I get more in slicing and smuggling. And I have no real chance of getting 150 on espi. I do on slicing and smuggling however.

Now here’s my problem with it: There is no way to tell that a race with a 5 in a class is not likely to get 150. I have heard many theories: That you should look at what it gets when it isn’t the main – which doesn’t make sense for another racial combination I have seen which got 150 even when it’s normally 2 or 3, or that you should just know and shut up.

So basically, If you want this system like it is, I’m okay with that, but there should be a ready way to tell what races are likely to get 150 and what aren’t. I’ve heard the idea of having it range from 1-6 tossed around. That might work, you wouldn’t really have to change code, just make races that are likely to get 145-150 or likely to be able to reach 150 with cybernetics and gains show as 6 in a class on showrace.

Also, Duros get crazy levels for how cheap they are in my opinion.

Duros:

combat                  Modifier: -15

piloting                Modifier: +50

engineering             Modifier: +30

bounty hunting          Modifier: -35

smuggling               Modifier: +20

diplomacy               Modifier: +5

leadership              Modifier: -10

force                   Modifier: +0

espionage               Modifier: -20

slicer                  Modifier: +20

medical                 Modifier: -15

science                 Modifier: +20

Now shut up.

Where did those numbers even come from Quicksilver? Last TL? You mean that TL that had completely different levels overall than this one? Right.

Though it was before my time, I’ve heard of the tables that QS just posted.  They weren’t from last TL, but from TLs prior to it.  I would ask that the IMMs update the wiki with these tables so They can be more readily available and accurate though.

One thing that drives me nuts is the fact that both before and after the level changes, a Jawa Engineer cannot get a 5 in Science, but a BH Jawa can. This was the reason my Jawa was a Smuggling main since they can get a 5 in Science. Some of the level calculations just make absolutely no sense.

That table is the level modifiers for a Duros. That is the system by which levels are determined. A base template, then racial modifiers are applied to the levels, then the class level modifications, then stats. That’s just how it is, it’s not a retarded theory like yours, cubed.

“One thing that drives me nuts is the fact that both before and after the level changes, a Jawa Engineer cannot get a 5 in Science, but a BH Jawa can. This was the reason my Jawa was a Smuggling main since they can get a 5 in Science. Some of the level calculations just make absolutely no sense.”

This is absolutely what i have meant by “please tell us if something is off”, since no-one has ever brought that up on immchat. I will get this fixed.

@frump: I Had seen the tables on the wiki, but until staff says otherwise i’m going to assume they have nothing to do with levels now since they haven’t been updated in awhile.

@QS: The more you talk the more I’m confused by how you manage to live day to day life without any common sense.

@Ralen: I still say add a 6 to showrace. Also, while something like BHer getting more science than an engi main is common sense, how are we supposed to know what is and is not right? How am I supposed to know whether or not a race/class has messed up levels if they all fall within the showrace stats for the race? That’s the problem with the current system. We have no idea what you consider normal or off.

@Ccubed: Let’s deconstruct this entire thread and actually focus on why you are irritated. What class/race combo are you not getting 150 in, and why does this seem off to you? Once stated, we might be able to explain why using common sense.

Essay-size posts and suggested code changes, whilst good talking points, aren’t the root of the issue.

Re: “How am I supposed to know” = you aren’t. You’re supposed to be given a rough idea of how the character will perform, not just in its main class, by a group of level ranges. We have no plans to add a 6th category to showrace just to highlight one level.

People just want to complain because they can’t twink out as easily anymore. Not every race should get 150 in whatever class they want to play. Do a race for it’s RP value and pick a main that goes with it.

I don’t know that it’s entirely accurate or fair to pidgeonhole every single person who’s upset about the “new” (Apparently it’s not actually new, thank you Ralen for the explanation btw) level system. I personally don’t care either way because I work two per diem jobs and will readily ditch characters on here when I get bored of them or I don’t have time to IRL to invest in them. But I think that saying “everyone just wants to twink” or “everyone just wants to min/max” is inaccurate. One of the biggest failings of a level based system is alot of why you tend to see more players in a MUSH. Leveled systems do not accurately capture “realistic” depiction of a sentient beings development. In the real world, a person can be a badass uber soldier and one day decide “Shit hoss I want to get a job that actually makes money” and end up going to school and becoming a biologist. Or an engineer. Or a computer science major. So on so forth. It’s perfectly reasonable for people to be upset about the “new” level system because “before” it was alittle more likely to have some other classes that they excelled in so if they decided to get away from what they were doing as a dildoscrubber or a computer hack or whatever they more likely had the levels to support getting into another field and getting fairly succesful in it. Yelling “their all just twinks!” is a shitty way of sweeping the entirety of the people that dislike the system into an unfair category and demonizing them. And after having played on here for several timelines intermittently it looks like one more situation where a change is going to be justified by the greater majority of the playerbase on the principle that “everyone who dislikes it just sucks” and that’s the end of it. And that, in my opinion, is lame. On the same token however this is a level based system. It’s a SMAUG MUD? Right? I’m not terribly savvy to the history of SWR or whatever amalgamation of codebases comprises LotJ. No matter what it’s never going to accurately depict the real world system of professional pursuits because it needs to be balanced or it’s going to turn into a MUD full of nuclear physicist computer hacker naval commander Rambo’s. But, yeah, don’t throw everyone in one category. That’s mean. Anyway, here come the “you just suck” reply flood.