The Force Next Timeline (important post on page 6)

A Padawan is actually pretty easy to take out with a good combat main or hunter. A knight level is a bit more difficult but still pretty manageable.

I think the biggest problem is Parry is too effective. There are a few fixes for it, but difficult to implement and test:

Parry takes FP, when you run out you can’t parry.
Reduce the rate that shots are parried back significantly. Make them just parry to the ground or walls most of the time.
Make your parry effective percent be based on your force level, so level 70 forcer would be easier to drop with blasters than level 110.

I’ve played a few Forcers in my time here and the thing that I would really like to see is Cortosis weapons being more prevalent. We could also bring back cortosis coating. You would be forced to choose between two of the three coatings at that point and always have a weakness.

Tweaking the parry code like Kraine said I think would be best. Having less reflected back at attackers but still deflecting is good and attackers don’t get mauled by their own shots. Not saying nerf it all together just lower the success rates

I would like to see lightsaber mastery lowered to 90 and senses lowered to 80. It would go well with taking the +10 force levels off of Consular.

Also on a reflected bolt why do we take 900 damage? If I can only hit you for 618 why can it come back for 1.5 times the damage. I can see a master level forcer being able to redirect the bolt so it hits a more vital part of the body but the damage output seems absurd. Maybe 550-750 depending on force level and skill at parry.

Parry deflects need to go into the person that hit them at a significantly lower rate. Or: cortosis or a similar material needs to become more easily accessible. Both might be too much. But as is*, the average soul does not bother fighting with a force adept because their weapon is either going to become their worst enemy or become shredded in an instant. It leads to silliness like grenading tactics instead of actually developing fighting tactics.

The difficult part about force users is they somehow become the every-role when they are placed in situations where there is not strong leadership, and people will actively avoid conflict if a single force adept is against them in a situation. Conflicts can’t surround, hinge on, and wait for a single person, because that person’s activity or skill level if it is lacking can really put a damper on the ability for conflicts to develop as a whole, but part of that is just a cultural issue surrounding fights.

Also, I strongly feel that farsight should no longer show a person in a room. If it should show anything, perhaps just the room name, or a check to show if they’re in the system or they aren’t. It is overpowered and allows for force adepts to be the superhunter/psychic/whatever which allows for those being pursued to be found with minimal effort. Such changes would accomplish a greater need for group coordination, and would maybe give bounty hunters a purpose again, because hey- a forcer might be able to sense that someone’s present- but a bounty hunter would be able to actually sniff them out.

*Disclaimer: I’m a year clean of any characters, this totally could have changed and this could all be out of date suggestions, take with a grain of salt; peace, love, and puppies, y’all

Above all else, I once again firmly believe that Force classes should be a choice based on RP, not level min-maxing. Does there need to be some kind of inherent bonus to the Force class? Yes. Make them unique. Discard the level bonuses for the Force classes and give something like passive abilities. Sage goes in a nice direction with that by giving bonus experience to the Master’s apprentice like something akin to being a Leader/Force but not really. Guardians could perhaps have an increased damage output or a +1 to attack every turn like the Echani racial. Maybe an improved blaster deflection rate or reduction in damage taken. Any of these could give Guardians a uniqueness in its class by tossing out its ridiculously silly level bonuses without making it overpowered. I don’t really have anything for Sentinels or Consulars at this moment, but feel free to chime in.

I currently am playing my first-ever force player. It was a random development – I didn’t expect an entry into the Forcer world. Also, I’ve never played a pvp character before. So after a few years off and on, I’m now experiencing my first Force character and first _very shallow_ steps into the world of pvp. (This is the first time I’ve worn carapace gear, to give you an idea how new to combat I am)

I think I got lucky, in that I got a _ton_ of cool ‘you are sensitive, now what are you going to do about it, bub?’ time, because I really didn’t have a clue what was going on. I didn’t know that there are Forcer subclasses, and I still don’t know what the dark side might have looked like, had I had gone that way. I also didn’t know, when I started reading helpfiles when I was awakened, that despite all the seeming depth, there are really only two choices: Guardian if you aren’t a combat-main, and Consular if you are a combat-main. From there, as far as combat goes, it’s all a numbers game.

I’ve read here where that needs to change, because being a Forcer ruins the numbers. Now, it probably does… I know that as soon as people find out I have a glowing stick folks get a lot more interested in what I’m doing. But here’s the thing… I’ve also learned that _all_ pvp in this game is a numbers game.

In my limited experience – very limited, yes – I’ve not seen anybody throw in on a fight unless the odds are heavily in their favor. I submit that this isn’t about the Force is too powerful.. it’s that My Character isn’t powerful enough. So changing the force system by lowering the numbers is certainly one option, but … well.. strong forcers are sort of a hallmark of Star Wars. But so is behavorial limitations on forcers. That feels like the part that is missing, to the new guy in the Force system. I can do anything I want, just like before I was awakened. Only now, I do it with better lighting.

There are a few things I’d be interested to see regarding Force system changes… but they are RP things. I can only speak to Jedi.. I’ve not played anything else, and I’d have to be a real chucklehead to believe I am wise about things I have no experience in. But speaking specifically about Jedi, I’d like to see the ability of a Jedi to use Jedi skilled tied directly to their actions as a Jedi. I can walk around kashyyyk all day slaying helpless Tachs, and it has zero impact on my world. I can pick a fight with anybody I want and you know what? Nothing. That feels off.

I don’t imagine there is a way to code it… but I’m constantly surprised by what this game can do. So maybe we can make character alignment actually matter. Maybe if I kill those 2000 innocent tachs, I’m not an angel anymore, and it affects my alignment. Maybe if I kill a good-aligned character, I’m not so much good aligned anymore. And maybe, if I am not good aligned, my force powers stop working. Maybe, once my actions start affecting my skills, Parry won’t be as effective once my alignment drops from 1000 to 500. Maybe if I hurt too many people, I can’t keep Vitality working, and maybe at some point the Force will no longer armor me against attack.

I get that this is complicated on some level, but if the stack of numbers that is my character is affected by more than the equipment I put on, that’s not all bad… if we can make even just character alignment factor directly into the Force system, that might be a way that RP affects how powerful a Jedi is.

And yes.. I think character alignment should matter for more than just Forcers. Maybe it _only_ matters when facing a forcer… but if I am a very Good being, I shouldn’t have to fear a Jedi.

Perhaps my Jedi can’t even murder a player who’s alignment is 800 or greater? I get a response that “The Force compels me to be gentle to that being” or something… We talk about the Force guiding us. Maybe it actually should, in a real and direct way?

I kind of like that idea. They should still get some sort of level bonus, but no where near what they get now.
Guardians are the warrior force class. Give them only 25-45 combat levels but a bonus to attack/damage or additional attack per round.
Sentinels are the espionage/smuggler force class. Give them 10-20 levels in either and a bonus to using those skills, boost in effectiveness or similar, and only 15-25 combat levels.
Consulors are the leadership/diplomacy class. Give them a 10-20 level bonus to either with boost to applicable skills and only 10-15 combat levels.
Sages are the Force adept force class. They shouldn’t get bonus levels in any classes except maybe combat (10-15 levels) but should get a boost to force skills and increased ability to train other forcers.

I have to agree, parry is a bit OP. It reflects way more often it should at lower force levels. I agree linking it in some way to force level with percentage. Decrease how often it reflects back at attacker and reduce the damage boost. Hell a deflected blaster bolt should do less damage after a deflection than more. Maybe even decrease how often parry deflects all together at lower levels as well.

IMO A force apprentice shouldn’t be able to deflect 80+% of fired blaster bolts from a skilled combatant but an adept should and be able to return maybe 20% at most back at an attacker. A force master would be able to deflect around 90-95% of fired shots and able to return maybe 35%. This could level the playing field but leaving the edge for the forcers. Well trained or tactically trained combatants, in a group can still take down a master forcer but get hurt in process. A force adept guardian/sentinal would be near on par with combat/bh mains.

Just thoughts from a newb with experience in other places and thoughts expressed here.

Biggest issue I see is that once a forcer steps in everyone (mostly) runs away. That shouldn’t be the case, maybe change how you approach a situation tactically but not stop you all together. From what I am reading there ARE tactics available to take on Forcers but face to face head on battles are not viable against combat/bh mains and forcer adept/masters, which shouldn’t be the case over all. In general forcers should have an advantage but not one so large it makes combatants ineefective.

That sliding scale alignment thing is how it works in stock SWR and it doesn’t work that great and is more obnoxious than anything and gives dark siders a massive advantage. Not to mention, in the movies/books, there isn’t really a moral issue raised with Jedi killing nonsentient monsters. At a certain point there needs to be concessions made for the sake of gameplay instead of realism, because at the end of the day this -is- a game. Jedi are already difficult for people to play well, I don’t think we should be giving them more of an incentive to just sit around doing nothing or preventing action from occuring. There’s a solution to this but it isn’t tying people’s alignment to killing mobs.

On top of that, previous LOTJ experience indicates preventing Jedi from killing people over a certain alignment would lead to certain players just trying to kill people to figure out their alignment. I can see the RPC restore justification now: “The code let me murder him, so he obviously was evil.” LOTJ does already regulate in this regard. If there’s a Jedi doing a lot of un-Jedilike actions, they lose their good alignment and are unable to cast Jedi spells. It happened multiple times last TL and I personally observed it happening another time this timeline.

As far as the level bonuses for subclasses go, I’m on board with the removal of most of the bonuses, except I think that every subclass should have an equal bonus to combat of around 50-70. The power gap between high and low level forcers is bad enough, I don’t think I could be part of making rolled forcers even worse than they already tend to be. Something you have to understand about the force system is that there are people who are really good at playing them who are also really good at saving points, as well creating a character that is highly complemented by this force purchase. It would hurt people like LED who suddenly have the situation come upon them when they’re playing, for the sake of argument, some sort of Verpine engineer. The Verpine engineer rolls force, gets no or a paltry combat bonus, and is just a straight up target for anyone who had the foresight to roll a Lorrdian combatant with their buy.

I don’t think forcers need to be made more of a chore to play or necessarily modified to benefit veterans who know the system.

@Zeromus already beat me to the punch on two points. Alignment was affected by NPCs a long time ago and I agree that using this system isn’t the answer. Killing Tachs shouldn’t affect alignment anymore than eating a Bantha steak should.

The other point about the subclasses I agree with as well. The reason those bonuses are there is primarily because of the force system before you could purchase force. If you randomly rolled force on a non combatant, you would be in a really crappy position with your low combat levels. Going guardian subclass helps bridge that gap, so you don’t end up with a completely worthless forcer at the expense of having low force points.

Zermorus and I both used Sentinel, so it definitely has a place, but I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of someone going Sage before. I mean, who would choose something that benefits other people and not yourself?! This isn’t to say that the subclasses don’t need to be modified, because maybe they do. However, they do serve an important role in giving some forcers a leg up to stand a chance against other forcers when they wouldn’t otherwise.

@LED : Your IG/IC actions do influence your alignment but only if the imms notice your slide into light/dark and adjust your alignment accordingly OR if you app for an align change (boring!) My forcer had a very long dance with the light and dark side and through very detailed think logs (which imms do check!) I slowly slipped into neutral over a period of a month+ of RP. Throughout said RP the imms would send messages to me that only I could see to show when I was in danger of losing my connection to the light side of the force. It was super fun RP and made the whole process was interesting and it also enforces a very strong message for a Jedi : You try and dance with the devil you can get burned and there are consequences. You cannot ride the line forever and those you associate with (a dark jedi wife and a DLoTS) and how you act should have consequences.

Anyways, immortals pay a lot more attention to forcers than standard players because there is the chance for them to make game changing actions and the whole alignment policing is more of a manual one right now. For example if a Jedi perms someone there are a LOT of eyes (players and imms) on that action. If people are screaming about a forcer attacking people the Eye of Sauron will be on that forcer. Being knocked to neutral is one heck of a dip code wise and that ‘threat’ of being forced to another align is for some incentive to restrict themselves from doing certain actions. Also if a Jedi slips to dark it gives the Jedi Order a somewhat valid reason to hunt down said new dark jedi and vice versa.

There are checks and balances from both imms and players for alignment right now.

As for subclasses it is very disappointed to find out that people (generally) go for the levels over the RP. The first time I picked Engineer+Guardian for RP and quickly learned 9/10 times you will see a guardian or a consular for code support. That will likely never change until there are serious revamps to sage, sentinel and whatever else there is.

@Xavious: I chose Sage on my last Jedi Master for RP reasons. It worked out fine. It’s not really much different than being a Leader/<Subclass> and boosting other people’s exp gains when they’re grouped with you. Some people aren’t only in it for themselves 😉

@Kirash: I stand corrected!

@Veric: That’s just the way it is. Considering no one sees your sublclass other than you, most people are going to pick the class that will help them out the most mechanically. You can always roleplay as a Guardian or a Consular. I personally don’t have any qualms about choosing whatever class is going to supplement my character the best, mechanics wise.

@Xavious: He understand that’s just the way it is. It shouldn’t be that way though. If people are going to be sticking with Guardian/Consular 90% of the time and just saying “Hurr I’m a Sentinel”, then perhaps the subclasses themselves should just be removed, every Forcer given a flat increase to certain levels, and then people can be free to RP whatever they want to be. It is not the ideal solution though.