Why is stat training still a thing?

This comes up on OOC a lot. It is pretty much universally agreed by people that stat training isn’t a good mechanic, even by multiple staff members. It makes ever using points to purchase levels for everything but smuggling suboptimal because you waste gains, it unfairly punishes newbies because the mechanic isn’t really properly explained, and it really falls under the time wastey mechanics that are quickly fading away from gaming in general. It’s obvious that imms can make a change to how stat training works in creation — it’s no longer an obligation to add stats under advanced creation, for instance, but what justification is there for stat training to remain a thing? Could a member of staff weigh in on this?

+1

I concur that stat training is really an obsolete mechanic that needs to be phased out in lieu of a better one. I really couldn’t say what that better one would be. I know some people would argue for and against with equal fervor on the subject of just having the stats you’d “train” be maxed out on chargen. However, no matter what happens, stat training needs a better mechanic.

Yeah. I’ve run out of credits on a couple of characters this timeline already trying to just get stats trained so I can start leveling without wasting.

I was thinking about it and it might be neat if you kept trainers in game and instead had training with them give some kind of buff like increased experience or temporary double skill ups or something for an increased cost.

Please god yes. Waste of time and credits on new characters and as mentioned punishes newbies. Trainers that allow you to go beyond the predetermined max I think is something that could remain. I also really like @zeromus’s idea about regular trainers offering something different.

We have a few things cooking but you know how coder time allocation can be. I think we’ve had a forum brainstorm thread or two about this.

(X-POSTING TO THIS NECRO from:http://www.legendsofthejedi.com/forums/topic/stat-training-3/)

I support this in theory but I also support a side issue of making things like this and language learning etc teachable by other players so you can RP train this stuff as well… maybe make it so you get gains leveling like normal but if you haven’t trained stats then they dont happen but they go to a queue so when you train that stat you can now train it above your racial max?

I.E.

I have not trained stats and I level up to combat 150… my str is now 21 but I can’t train it higher…

in my proposed system the gains would be flagged on your character when they happen and just ADD to your racial max in some way like the formula could be:
Character STR = (RACIAL MAX) + (Gear Bonuses) + (Permenent Bonuses like Cybers) + (PERSONAL GAINS)

or something.

I do like the idea of making training more rp related. I always thought the concept of buying levels to be absolutely pointless. Most people can find someone to train them in combat and/or leadership within 20 minutes and even after paying the teacher they still have enough with what they earned from leveling + their starting cash to pay for stat training. That’s just one of many ways to earn quick credits to pay for stat training. Levels are easy to get, it’s raising skills % that takes forever. Now if you put a teacher in the newbie academy that can allow players to practice limited researchable skills (e.g. slice/secure/flurry) to a higher percentage than in a library, they can utilize it to get a jump on skills that players who did not buy levels won’t be able to practice. This saves the paying players hours or even days of grinding out a valuable skills, which in my opinion is way more valuable than an hour or two doing stats. If stat training really is a problem maybe you can allow players to pay points for auto-training of stats up to their racial max. (+1 str cost x amount of points). Then they can go ahead and buy their levels directly after and enjoy their gains. Another option is to limit the players stats based on levels. If a player has 18 strength, then they can’t train up to 19 until they reach 70 in combat. Once they hit 70, they can go to a gym and pump out that extra strength point. These are just a few ideas. I’m not saying they are all great or should all be implemented together or even the way they are presented. Mix and match, tweak and…twerk until we get something that everyone can enjoy.

I completely agree that stat training is a waste of time, and can in some instances ruin character planning. I am glad to see the immortal staff is discussing it, however. Here are the specific issues I have:

Uneven distribution of trainers.-One side of the galaxy has nearly all the trainers you need, the other side does not. As I have previously pointed out on councilnet, this will become an advantage to one side come war time. I have asked for trainers to be placed on Ryloth as an interim solution, but nothing.

Waste of time-In my experience I spend the first 30 to sixty minutes just training up stats. I also have to carefully plan what stats I am going to train up. (Okay, train int do science quests, or train str con cha wis get a trainer, level up combat). There is also a sort of dance that must be performed. You need to plan out what classes you are going to level, in what order, so that you don’t level up a different class and accidently get a gain. The most nerve wracking portion of stat training is travel. How many times have you landed somewhere without a dex trainer, realized you need to go somewhere else, and prayed you DIDN’T get a gain and risk screwing yourself out of some precious levels?

Waste of money-So, not only have I wasted time training my stats before I level, I am also wasting money. Money that could be used toward gearing my new character, which in turn will help me level up faster. Now, I generally walk out of the academy with close to 60k. After stat training, I am nearly broke again. Now I have to go off and quest, beg, etc, so I can afford some starter items on my journey.

Disincentive to buy levels-I have a fair amount of points, but they rarely get spent because it isn’t worth it to buy anything outside of smuggling. There is no incentive for me to spend my points as it will most likely throw off any character planning that I have going on. I therefore spend more time leveling, researching, gearing my new character. I form a deeper attachment to it, and become less willing to risk my character’s death.

Risk of theft-Having newbies around training is just begging to be stolen from, and has happened in the past.

Solutions-
1. Remove stat trainers and have everyone start with racial max to start-previously stated.
2. Remove the time delay in training- If stat training is still going to be a thing, please remove the time sink. It is mind numbingly boring, and imo, can cause newbies to quickly lose interest. Either they will jump right in, and be mad that they have to spend time training before they can RP, or will NOT train stats and find out later they should have, and be upset.
3.Remove the cost- If the time sink won’t be removed, then remove the cost. That way at least the character will still have some money to spend on other things (ship, gear etc)

I agree with one of Zeromus’ ideas from above, in that trainers should remain in game, but instead offer buffs. I would like to see a character be able to get a temporary stat buff ( but not levels) by visiting a trainer. Head to the gym, pay 5k, and get +1 str for X number of rounds.

Another, more coder-effort-intensive option, would be to have characters start with their racial max, and then instead of having gains and cybers be immediate + to their stats, those increases are treated as though the racial max was increased, and have to be trained for at a trainer to be utilized, making the stat trainer more akin to a feat trainer (though please not as fucking obscure as some of the feat trainers currently are).

This would shift the stat training onus away from new players, make ‘losing gains’ a thing of the past, and give established characters another thing to go out and do.

Uneven distribution of trainers.-One side of the galaxy has nearly all the trainers you need, the other side does not. As I have previously pointed out on councilnet, this will become an advantage to one side come war time. I have asked for trainers to be placed on Ryloth as an interim solution, but nothing.

Sure. Any chance we can get a lylek cave put in on Coruscant?

lol fishy…. love how this is the first time you agree with me and its just cause you never read my reply.

Stat training sucks…
Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

I hate stat training for all the reasons Zeromus outlined and more! What’s the alternative system?

I’ve always been a big fan of a sort of hybrid system. Essentially, you can “train str” and you get the regular timer and the chance of fail, but it doesn’t cost credits. Alternatively, you can do “train str pay” and it costs you X amount of credits, and it takes time, but it is a guaranteed success. This is just an idea I’ve bounced around though, and i’m not totally sold on it.

I like the mechanic idea of having to go to the best trainer to max out or whatever.

I hate stat training for all the reasons Zeromus outlined and more! What’s the alternative system?

I’ve always been a big fan of a sort of hybrid system. Essentially, you can “train str” and you get the regular timer and the chance of fail, but it doesn’t cost credits. Alternatively, you can do “train str pay” and it costs you X amount of credits, and it takes time, but it is a guaranteed success. This is just an idea I’ve bounced around though, and i’m not totally sold on it.

I like the mechanic idea of having to go to the best trainer to max out or whatever.